The "Red Menace": Anne Hale, Communist Teacher
2005 Local Historians: Will Barnett and Felipe Sanchez
2004 Local Historians: Jen Huang and Kathryn Paul
The year was 1954, and Wayland was experiencing a huge growth in population.
Young families and young couples looking to start a family poured in. It was a time when the long-time residents had to part with feelings of ownership of their small rural town. The new families got more than just the expensive schools they wanted; their influence brought about a tight-knit community. It was a time of carpooling and babysitting; of light gossip amongst neighbors who shared a similar point of view. It could have been any growing town in the northeast, maybe even the country. Wayland was a town of thoughtful and rational people, but it was by no means immune to the anti-Red hysteria going on nationwide. Says Mrs. Edith Stokey, wife of Town Counsel Roger Stokey, a few overly-vigilant residents got caught up in the hunt:
"One of the stories was that there was a regular meeting of a communist cell
in Wayland. The evidence was that every Thursday night the same group of
cars convened at the same house. The gentlemen who reported it took down
the plate numbers and reported them to the FBI. The truth of the matter was
that this was a ladies' bridge club. . . "
". . . we too [Mr. and Mrs. Stokey] were reported. Our sin was that we had
taken our shutters off our house to paint the house and had not put them
back on. This was viewed as highly suspicious because Ned Goodell who lived
near us had done the same thing. He was generally believed to have been a
member of a former member of the Communist party. So if we took our
shutters off, that must be signal. . . "
This was an age when North Korean communists shooting at UN troops as they attempted to take the entire Korean peninsula. This was
when the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were sentenced to death on charges of
divulging coveted military secrets to the Soviet Union. "Duck and Cover"
drills were regular occurences in public schools in case of a nuclear
attack. During this period of hostility towards communism, Massachusetts
teachers were required to take the oath (up until 1949):
"I do solemnly swear that I will uphold the Constitution of the United
States and of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and that I will oppose the
overthrow of the government of the United States of America or this
Commonwealth by force or violence or by any illegal or unconstitutional
This is the key to Miss Anne Hale's history in Wayland, the story of a
former communist dismissed from her job as a second grade public school
teacher. Known to the FBI as a rather benign member of the Communist Party,
Miss Hale nevertheless lost her job due to her political affiliation. Her
files describe her as a quiet lady without many friends who'd spend most of
her time with her pet dogs and, on occasion, "a colored lady who appeared
to be advanced educationally. . .whom she believed to be a doctor or a
teacher." Very suspicious.
On April 23 Miss Hale stood before the Wayland School Committee in sworn
testimony. Her membership to the Communist Party, which ended two years
after accepting a job at Wayland, had been discovered. In this private
meeting she openly acknowledged her involvement and answered the Committee's
questions surrounding her communist activities. Her statements were
recorded. They would later serve as the basis of the trial (most of the
following are reiterations of her testimony found in her own letters to the
Town Crier in June 1954):
- I should like to repeat what I have already said I have not been a member
of the Communist Party since the end of 1950 nor have I been active in its
behalf since that time.
- The Communist Party was a political organization dedicated by lawful means
through majority action to establish Socialism in this country.
- I have never advocated, nor heard any one else connected with the Communist
Party at any time advocate sabotage, espionage, sedition or the violent
overthrow of the government.
- When I came to Wayland to teach in 1948, I considered carefully the
meaning of the teachers oath. I could certainly say with perfect truth that
I would do my best to uphold the Federal and State Constitutions. That I
wished to see them amended was not contrary to such an oath. The
constitutions themselves contain provisions for amendment, of course. My
father was a delegate to the Massachusetts Constitutional Convention that
was held about 1910.
- She claimed that she was unaware of the act that declared it illegal for the
Commonwealth to hire a member of a subversive organization.
A month later, she was given a formal write-up of the charges against her as
well as a notification that a vote on her dismissal would be held in June.
The charges against her, as reprinted in the
Town Crier, are as follows:
- (Conduct unbecoming a teacher): The essence of this charge
is that Miss Hale did not tell the truth to the School Committee with
respect to one or more important matters listed.
- (Unfitness to teach): This charge raises the question as to
whether or not Miss Hale's judgment qualifies her to teach Second Grade
pupils and handle contacts with parents. Her judgment is questioned because
of her continued membership in the Communist Party after 1947 and the
statements she has already made to the Committee as to the nature, purposes,
and activities of the Communist Party.
- This charge presumably comes under the category of other
good cause. Under the law the School Committee is not restricted to
dismissing only those persons proved to be Communist. They charge that
membership in the Party between 1938 and 1950 and continued adherence to its
program thereafter are sufficient grounds for dismissal.
Not willing to let the matter be settled in secrecy, she requested a public
trial. She wanted to show that her idea for a better world had no influence
on her teaching. To dispel any mystery about the charges against her she
published numerous letters in the Wayland Town Crier. These included a
letter to her students, the history of her communist period, and
reiterations of her statements from April 23rd.
My Father, when I asked him to define a successful person, gave his
definition as one who had helped the broadest group of people to the utmost
of his ability. This has been my goal for success in life ever since.
She speaks of her frustration with a private school where she taught and her
inability to contribute to anything positive. She speaks of being impressed
with the sincerity of the Communists and her apprehension with joining them
because of the notion that they advocated violence.
For a long time I held back, because I was told by others that they believed
in force and violence. After some study and investigation of this I found
that they taught that socialism could come only when the majority were ready
for it, and chose a socialist government.
Their other objectives being the same as mine: to improve conditions for the
underprivileged, by basic changes when the time came, but until then by
working for jobs, peace, democracy, better housing, better schools, and so
forth, I felt there was no further reason for hesitation, and I joined the
Communist Party in June, 1938.
Roger Stokey, as the Town Counsel, had the unpleasant task of prosecuting
Miss Hale. Stokey did not refuse the job knowing the trial could potentially
be handled very badly, and knowing he would do his best to conduct the case
fairly. The political climate had made this a very delicate operation. The
McCarthy-Army show trials coincided with the hearings and could be seen by
anyone with a TV. (The trials were joked about on the first night of the
hearing; called Wayland's "competition in Washington" by the Crier.) This was
not the peak in McCarthy's popularity; it was actually the beginning of his
It did however play on the curiosity of the citizens. It was
that curiosity that, on the first night, packed 700 spectators into the High
School gym (now the Town Building). What they witnessed, however, was the
exact opposite of the reckless brutalizing of a witness from a demagogue
foaming at the mouth. Hale supporters would commend Stokey for, as Mr.
Waldron, a member of the School Committee who voted against dismissal,stated
"Proceeding carefully, conscientiously, and intelligently."
The hearing included a short list of witnesses called to the stand, among
them teachers from the school and an FBI agent. Mrs. Edith Stokey says the
hearings were intentionally dulled down to curb public interest. By the
third hearing attendance had tapered significantly.
Another source of dying interest was the defiance of Anne Hale. On
April 23rd, most would have denounced everything they formerly stood for,
called their participation a misguided experiment. Miss Hale never cited
disillusionment to explain her departure from Communism. She cited a
preoccupation with other more pressing organizations. Many would have
accepted a private firing and packed their bags without question. The way
she conducted herself during the public trials caught everyone off guard.
When asked a question regarding her knowledge of the communist agenda or
activities during that period she simply refused to answer. One night a
reporter counted 39 refused questions. This is the Crier's account of the
"Miss Hale reads a two page statement, the gist of which is:
- She told the school committee on April 23 of her political beliefs on a
- She believes this is a private matter and when asked under compulsion she
is not obligated to answer.
- She had answered the committee questions previously because she wanted it
understood that she held unpopular views and felt she had a right to hold
- She admits the right of the school committee to question her on matters
pertaining to any proof they might offer that she was not sufficiently
prepared to teach or that she lacked perception and judgment in dealing with
children or parents.
- The constitutions of the United Sates and Commonwealth forbid such
inquiry as does Chapter 71, Section 29 of the General Law.
The Committee, apparently taken by surprise by this development, recesses."
As her responses became scarce so did her sympathizers. The League of Women
Voters wrote a Letter to the Editor distancing themselves from Miss Hale.
One group that stood firmly behind her was the Unitarian Church. Because the
attendants were predominantly young liberals and Miss Hale was never
excommunicated, the Unitarian Church was believed to be a hot bed of
communism. Reverend Raymond Manker reflects on the atmosphere of the 50s in
a 2002 sermon:
On going to Wayland, Massachusetts, in 1950, I was only 25 years old, and I
did not have the wisdom of years that Arthur had earned. Soon, at the high
point of the "red scare" of Senator Joseph McCarthy, I was in trouble for
openly speaking my mind. Several in the congregation were incensed over my
sermons, and demanded that the Standing Committee fire me. Fortunately, the
congregational vote retained me, and a goodly number of previously
uncommitted liberals in the community, on seeing the congregation support
me, decided to join the church and give added support. It was then that the
F.B.I. started to build its file on me. I supported Anne Hale, a member of my congregation, a popular, well-loved
school teacher, who was being hounded and finally fired by the school board
for having once been a communist, and who refused to beg for pardon. It hit
the front page of the Boston newspapers, and we received hate mail and
terrible telephone calls. But my great congregation stood firm.
There were three ways Stokey could have had her dismissed. The first: under
the charge of conduct unbecoming of a teacher. If any of her statements from the sworn
testimony on April 23rd were found to be outright lies. Without Miss Hale's cooperation, this proved to be difficult. The prosecutors were forced to
lean on a second route: the charge of unfitness to teach. They had to prove
that there was a widespread acceptance among the communists of the use of
force and that there was a widespread knowledge of the anticommunist
regulations on public schools at the time she signed her applications.
Accomplishing this would make her look like a sheltered innocent, blinded
idealist, or ignorant fool (the dissenting Committee member on what was
trying to be shown.) The third charge could be substantiated if the
Committee finds her adherence to the communist doctrine makes her unsuitable
as a teacher. It became a trial grounded in judgments as apposed to legal
points. The Committee overrules Miss Hale's lawyers repeated objections
saying that, as a hearing and not a trial, we are not bound strictly to the
rules of evidence. When justice crosses over into this territory even the
most well handled examination can become insulting. It was certainly no
spectacle, but moments of drama did find their way into the proceedings, as
reported by the Crier:
Stokey wants her to state her grounds [for refusing to answer]. Mr. Allen
[her lawyer] asserts she is not legally qualified to answer such a technical
question, Mr. Stokey says, If Miss Hale can't tell under what act she claims
immunity she hasn't the judgment to be a school teacher. (Applause).
Mr. Allen: I regard that as a most ungracious remark. I hope they did not
think they were coming here for a lynching. Both remarks are stricken from
The decision was reached 2-1 and called for the dismissal of
Anne Hale. Both the majority and minority opinion spoke at length of their
frustration with Miss Hale. The majority made clear their contempt for her communist
;We would like to point out at this time that we are fully aware of the
protection given by General Laws, Chapter 71 Section 30 to political
opinions and affiliations. We do not believe that this statute protects
affiliations with a conspiracy which masquerades as a political party. We
consider the Communist Party to be such a conspiracy. Therefore, questions
may properly be asked regarding affiliations with it. Despite our views of
Chapter 71, section 39, in reaching the conclusions stated below we have not
taken into consideration Miss Hale's refusal to answer questions.
It is interesting to note the difference between this statement and Miss
Hale's belief in the principle that no one should lose his job on account of
his political convictions. The majority came to the conclusion that, regarding two of the counts under
the 1st charge, she was in fact lying.
We cannot believe that Miss Hale, in her twelve years of activity in the
Communist Party did not learn this doctrine, or hear it advocated, or know
of the distribution of literature advocating it. Her experience was too
long, her activities too varied, her acquaintances too wide spread, her
study of doctrine too extensive, to permit us to reach such a conclusion. We
conclude that she did not tell the truth on April 23, that she did so in
order to defend the Communist Party, that charge 1 (c) is substantiated, and
that she should therefore be dismissed.
Regard the charge of unfitness to teach they said:
Without reviewing the evidence at this time, we believe it sufficient to
say that even the most charitable view of this case shows that Miss Hale has
demonstrated an almost complete lack of perception, understanding and
They also justify dismissal under the charge that following communist
doctrine impairs the ability to teach. They speak of the impressionability
of second grade, their inability to judge and reject ideas.
The dissenting voice can be heard as pained and perplexed. In the writing of
Walter Waldron one can see a tremendous struggle. On one side he was
suspicious of the testimony Miss Hale gave on April 23rd and he has doubts
about her honesty. He found her political convictions abhorrent and
recognized that the publicity had done irreparable damage to her reputation
with the parents. He felt that he had no reason to believe that her opinions of
the Communist doctrine had changed in the least since 1950. His colleagues
wrote of substantiated evidence with steadfast certainty. He wrote of the
possibility that his decision is less realistic than the majority's. The
dilemma was complicated by the impossibility of pulling facts from a silent
response. His dissent began with a lengthy introduction in which he
lamented her refusal of the questions asked. He admitted that if he were
allowed to hold her silence against her he would not have differed with his
colleagues. But the fact that her guilt was not proven would not allow Mr.
Waldron to vote for dismissal.
I realize too that as a member of the School Committee I have a duty to do
all I can to promote the interests of our School Department. However, whereas here Miss Hale's record as a teacher has been good, I believe that I may
have a higher duty- particularly as a lawyer trained to the legal
significance of the principles and traditions embodied in the Declaration of
Rights of our Massachusetts Constitution and the Bill of Rights of our
Federal Constitution. And that duty is to uphold the right of all citizens
including teachers to freedom of belief and lawful association in their
He called this one of the most difficult decisions in his life. This was
not a popular response; he was never reelected.
Public discussion of Anne Hale dissipated quickly after her dismissal. For Wayland
residents life went on, but Miss Hale had a harder time moving forward. She
was a lonely woman and never got married. She dabbled in other professions,
but again, employment was difficult for a known subversive. She tried to
start a small summer program in Wayland for kids from Boston. She got a job
cleaning cages, but was fired when her communist past resurfaced. Near the
end of her life she taught children with brain damage. She was never allowed
to again contribute to the town of Wayland; she never got back to the years
which she said were the "happiest and most rewarding years of my life so
Transcript of interview of Joyce Wilson
conducted by Felipe Sanchez and Will Barnett on May 24th, 2005
Wilson: So what do you want to know?
Wilson: The fact I am giving you these pages is because they devote
one-two sentences to the school committee members who voted on Anne
Hale's dismissal who held the hearing devoted only two sentences in
their report to the town of that event.
Sanchez: It's also kind of interesting that like we read the
uh newspapers from around that time period the '54 Wayland Town
Barnett: Yeah and there was very little written about her.
Sanchez: There was this whole fantastic entire paper and then the next
month nothing; no editorial...
Wilson: Wait, yes, what I guess I'm trying to get across to you is
that though it seemed like earth shattering stuff it got very little
notice. The state of Massachusetts legislature had a communists
committee selected legislatures from the state met with FBI people and
all sorts of people and then declared that there was all these 80 some
communists in the state of Massachusetts. Communism was a real
dirty word because McCarthy was, Sen. McCarthy was in control of the
airwaves and he was having these hearing on all these horrible
communists people who were absolutely dismantling Hollywood and
everything else because they were giving all of us lies and....
Sanchez: Uh, yeah I'm sure that they...
Wilson: And there was hysteria in some parts of the country but
Massachusetts being Massachusetts treated this very lightly, although
there were some people in town who thought there was a communist
behind every tree.
Barnett: Yeah, we actually read something at the historical society
were there is this story of people who took there shutters down and um
some neighbor told the FBI because um two neighbors and uh they
thought it some weird signal the commies had.
Wilson: Some kind of signal plus the fact that all of these three
Wayland people who were named to be communists lived in red houses...
Barnett & Sanchez: [Laughter]
Barnett: Are you serious?!?
Wilson: [inaudible], Ned Gavell in a red house, and Elizabeth Raymond
lived in a red house and they were all just painted red they weren't
red because of any reason, they were just old barn red that everyone
else painted there houses. But since all, but then everybody else who
lived in a red house people began to say "Maybe the Waldrons...oh
maybe these people, oh maybe the Waldrons!" so that, it was so silly!
But not everybody did that, obviously. [coughs] And you know enough
to know that Anne Hale was a respected teacher...
Wilson: She was teaching second grade, well, that caused a lot of
people to say what could she possibly be doing that bother people in
the second grade? If she had been a high school teacher, there might
have been more concern, if she been teaching social studies there
might have been reason to say "y'know she's trying to teach the kids
something that is wrong"
Sanchez: Teaching them socialist studies
Barnett: Right, socialist studies!
Wilson: That, that...there was enough concern so that people were sort
of taking sides and the fact that little Wayland, although growing,
had three named communists by the state commission...made everybody a
little more aware of what was going on. What Anne Hale did that was
different was that she demanded a public hearing on being fired. The
reason that she was being considered for being fired was not because
she had been a communist but because she had signed her application
had saying that she never been affiliated with the communist party
which was part of a legal thing that you had when applying for a job,
you had to say whether or not you had ever been a part of any
subversive group. It was so shortly after the war...
Sanchez: The Korean War...
Wilson: World War II, and the Russians getting the atom bomb that
people got itchy.
Barnett: Yeah, um, so that was sorta the, ah, climate of the town, it
was sorta, ah, anti-Red and anti-subversive but there wasn't this
Wilson: It wasn't universal in the town tend the fact that she had
been a good teacher and wasn't affecting anyone made an awful lot of
people angry at the idea that she had to come up for dismissal. There
was little understanding of the reason being that she had signed her
name to statement that wasn't true and she did admit that she had
indeed been a member of the communist party, and she did admit that
she joined organization too...uh...to proselytize her thinking. But
by the time she was teaching school out here, she had lost contact
with the cell that she had been involved with. So she was really
harmless. [laughs] I'm using that term lightly, harmless is what
people would've said she wasn't really vindictive she wasn't trying to
turn people into...uh...
Sanchez: I'm sure people were a little bit, y'know, at odds with the
fact that she is teaching such impressionable young kids opposed to...
Wilson: Well there was that angle too, even though it was probably,
most people would have thought if she was teaching high school
students it would have been more scary than teaching second graders,
but there were people who just like you said, thought that they are so
impressionable at that age she will surely corrupt them. Um...she
wasn't a very aggressive person, but when she said that she demanded a
public hearing then instead of taking her fired papers and going, she
demanded this hearing, which was perfectly legal, she had every right
to. Well, it was conducted in a very low-key way. There was the
three men who were on the school committee, there was a town council
and witnesses that you called in, including the FBI. And uh a man,
and then various people would come with statements of one sort or
another, the president of the league of women voters, of which she was
a member, had to read out that she attended such-and-such meetings,
that kind of thing.
Sanchez: They, um, testified on her behalf or against her?
Wilson: They just asked questions anything she had been a member of,
because she had said at one time that she was using membership in
organizations to promote her ideals. Her ideas, she said, were um,
goodness and light and wonderful things, but it could be interpreted
that her ideals came from her membership in the communist party. And
those ideals would've been translated into we're gonna fight America.
Barnett: Overthrow the government?
Barnett: Overthrow the government?
Wilson: Overthrow the government. Uh, that hysteria was more...it was
brought about largely because of the aggressive action of some people
national congress, senate and this general feeling that we couldn't
trust the communists because Russia was no longer a trustworthy ally,
it was an emend. And anyone who had been a communist, or who had been
a fascist, or who had been anything else practically, might want to
overthrow the United States government, and somehow we all had to be
Barnett: Well, so...
Wilson: Well we weren't scared...
Barnett: [Chuckles] Okay, I...uh...
Sanchez: You said that when, y'know this is like a huge y'know
Wilson: It wasn't, it was like a minor hysteria.
Sanchez: And you said that Massachusetts kinda was pretty low-key in
terms of their reaction of it, but if you look at, y'know the articles
talking about the turnouts that this that these pulled in, like 700
hundred people like that seems like people were pretty upset about
Wilson: That's an overestimation I was there, there was no 700 people,
we didn't have a place that would hold 700 people.
Wilson: I don't know where you got that figure
Barnett: I think we got it from, um, Maynard.
Wilson: 700, are you sure?
Sanchez: I...that's off the top of my head, that could be...
Wilson: Because if it were, it would be, I'm sure that would be...
Barnett: What would your estimate be?
Wilson: We didn't have the field house, we didn't have the field
house, we didn't have anyplace that would hold that many people, it is
in the now town administration building, which was then the high
school, and had the gym room which is were it was held and that is
still...it is the large hearing room now, it is no longer a gym. And
it wouldn't hold 700 people, I would say the most it could've been was
500, I think it was more like 300 people, but I am just judging from
my memory and I can't... well, check it out, if it is 700, whatever he
said he researched. It was a lot less the next nigh, and less then
that the next.
Barnett: Yeah, we, um, read something where it said that it was the
wife of Stokey...
Wilson: Edith Stokey
Barnett: Yeah Edith Stokey, and she said that her husband deliberately
tried to make it as boring as possible so that less people would come
so it wouldn't become a spectacle
Wilson: Well, I'm not sure how deliberate it was, um...he had to do
this job because he was town council, he knew Anne Hale he knew her
personally, and wasn't upset by her and knew what he had to do, and I
though did it very thoughtfully, it was more dramatic than I think he
expected it to be just because of the situation but he no matter how
he tried he couldn't have made it boring to people really interested,
but she would say that now looking back on it I am sure. I know Edith
well, and she is a wonderful woman and as a matter of fact after each
of these sessions they would come back to our house and rehash
everything and talk it over so we heard a lot from Roger himself. I
think he was deliberately low key so people would not get aroused I
don't he had in m,ind keeping away by being boring, but that what he
thinks of now, or maybe he told her that and didn't tell the rest of
us. Who knows?
Sanchez: I'm sure a lot of people came to those meetings expecting
something just fascinating
Wilson: She was a kind of doughty schoolteacher kind of person and I
don't mean that unkindly, because I gather from your prom that one of
your schoolteachers can dance like mad...
Barnett: Oh yes, Mr. Gavin!
BARNETT & Sanchez: [hearty laugh]
Barnett: You should've seen him!
Sanchez: He got down, so to speak.
Barnett: Yeah, he set the floor on fire
Wilson: Isn't that great?
Barnett: He honestly out-danced every student there
Wilson: [laughs] even you?
Barnett: Just barely
Wilson: Just barely, okay
Sanchez: Yeah, he put Will at a close second. You should've seen Will
with his cowboy hat; he would take off his cowboy hat and put it on a
girl and then dance around her
Wilson: That must've been great
Sanchez: Clever move
Wilson: Wow, we're getting off the subject
Barnett: Yes we are. But, um, you mentioned early that you were in
close contact with a lot of the key players what were...
Sanchez: The key players
Barnett: Yeah, what was your impression of them?
Wilson: Well, I was just about to tell you about Anne Hale. She was a
kind of doughty person, she wasn't sharp like your dance teacher,
that's why I said sorta school teacher-y, just an image of kinda short
and a little, y'know, not very shapely, and just a kinda cute little
thing. But she wasn't, she didn't give me the impression of being
firebrand or anything like that. The school committee, well two of
them were fairly elderly compared with the rest of the population that
was attending this and one was a young, in those days, young labor
lawyer and he was really kind of an exciting personality, he didn't
look it. He was a big tall langely y'know, and, but he was kinda...he
was really...actually he voted against her being fired even though he
recognized the seriousness of signing something and telling a lie on
paper and afterwards in person but she did admit that she had been a
member of the communist party, but no longer was. That's the part a
lot of people weren't willing to believe. But the technicality on her
being fired was the fact that not telling the truth at the time of her
application and repeatedly when signing tenure papers and so forth.
She never admitted to her membership, her prior membership; whether
she was still a member or not I don't think was ever proved, and I
don't know how you prove if you're still a member of something that is
clandestine as that.
Barnett: Right. But, uh, yeah, back to Stokey, what was he like?
Wilson: Well, he was prematurely balding, very young looking, however,
because he had light colored hair, blue eyes, pink cheeks. A real
young looking guy, but very, very...you knew right away when you met
him that he was highly intelligent and a person of considerable
integrity. Um, the guy from the FBI looked just like a guy from the
Wilson: [Chuckles] He tried to paint him, dark suit, dark tie
Sanchez: The suit
Wilson: Tall, upright, salute the flag, I mean he was really one of
those people but he was very good. Um, most of the other people were
people who have known Anne Hale as a schoolteacher, some of the
schoolteachers spoke in her favor, some spoke that they weren't sure
what they would've done. Not a long list of witnesses, the most
exciting thing of course was getting the FBI involved.
Wilson: And a lot of things were read into the record, um, the report
of the legislative commission that had named her as a communist. But
it was more perfunctory than dramatic. It was really not all that
Sanchez: Do you think that the people, the people from Wayland walked
out just feeling let down, like "Ahhh, I wanted to see some action" or
something like that?
Sanchez: Or reading of some paper?
Wilson: I think that, I think most people felt that it was well that
this had been handled the way it was. Most, there was certainly not
much comment after this, as you know from looking at the Criers. It
didn't go on and on like some continuing story. Everyone just sorta
picked up their business, and that was it.
Barnett: And you mentioned, uh, earlier to me that you talked,
discussed the case every night...
Wilson: Afterwards after we got to our house, the reason we choose our
house is because [chuckles] nobody would have known where it was, it
was on the upper part of Gleezen lane, and, um, and nobody really knew
we were there, we had only lived in town for three years or so, and so
the Stokey's car or other people's car would have been recognized.
They didn't want to mean at their house because that was right on the
main drive on 126, and everybody would've know there was a gathering
there and wondered what was going on. So... [chuckles]
Sanchez: Could they be changing their drapes?
Barnett: Painting the house red?
Wilson: No we didn't! But it was, you just didn't want to take any
chances with anyone reading anything wrong. mostly it was a chance
for Roger to take his shoes off and relax because he had been under a
lot of tension to be sure he was asking the right questions and doing
the right things. And he...
Barnett: So you sorta gave him feedback?
Wilson: So we were able to say, y'know, tomorrow night or maybe the
next night you ought to ask this question or...that kinda thing. That
give and take. The...I think that what everyone was trying to do, who
was involved, including the school committee, was to have a fair open
hearing at her request. They really didn't want to have an open
hearing; they really wanted it to be just "goodbye Ms. Hale, it's been
nice knowing you" but she insisted on having this because I think that
she felt that if she could prove to them and the public that her prior
membership to the party did not affect her teaching. And I am sure
she made that clear. And for that reason and nothing else she felt
vindicated, even though she was fired.
Sanchez: She can save face knowing that her personal character
Wilson: People would not go home thinking that she was an evil person.
And if it had been done in private they may have had the impression
that she was admitting some kind of guilt. So this way she was able
to have her say and have the public recognize that she an, um,
non-horrendous devil in someone else's clothing, she was really a
decent human being striving for a better world. And her thought...her
idea for a better world included some things that most people who were
upward mobile people who went to a community like this would think of
as being backward, anti-democracy, anti-government, anti-business.
Y'know the things that communists were known to be
Barnett: So, this trial it seems very rational, very nice, so it seems
like the opposite of the McCarthy hearings
Wilson: It was so different, you're right, that was a table pounding
extortion. It was really, uh, a very...very bad thing to have done in
my opinion, and it caught people's fancy because it was the first time
that this kind of think had been done in a public media. Y'know TV
was brand new, radio was the big thing, it was hard for people to
adjust to the idea that the country could be seeing and hearing
someone who was a real dema--demagogue and his...his coworker Cohn,
the lawyer who was...
Barnett: Yeah, yeah
Wilson: Was a bad man in my opinion. And they did a lot of damage to
people's reputations. A lot of good actors and public people got
vilified that shouldn't have been. And it was not an unpopular thing
to be a socialist.
Barnett: Right, during like the Great Depression...
Wilson: ... Socialist and communist it's not...It's extreme in those
in the mind of those who know but in the general public that's bad.
Sanchez: How much did the people in Wayland know about communism, or
the ideals...I mean that she published the ideals that she stood for
and tried to instill in her students, but you have to wonder how much
the people of Wayland actually knew?
Wilson: I don't think that very many people did because it wasn't the
fashion in those days to, um, devour Marx.
Barnett: [Chuckles] Yeah
Wilson: it was not, y'know, it was not...um...I think that some, there
were definitely some people in town who truly believed that there were
a lot of communists hanging around in this community and they were
evil people and they should be thrown in jail because they were out to
upset their pattern of life. And they felt, I think, a little cheated
that this didn't get bigger play and Wayland didn't get more on the
map for having...
Sanchez: Fought the good fight.
Wilson: Remove this dangerous woman and so forth. It really did not
make a lot of play, and that is why I thought that page in the Town
Wilson: Two sentences is all... Well y'know, this think that would've,
you would've though from the first 10 lines that the entire town would
be in a great state of upheaval...
Barnett: Yeah, well with Maynard's essay he calls it "The Red Scare
In Wayland" and you get the sense that its this massive thing, and the
way you're describing it, it really sounds like nice, I mean not
exactly kosher by today's standards, but...
Wilson: Well, it was certainly...it was certainly nicely done, as I
way of saying that I think that Anne Hale's point in having the open
hearing was vindicated. Everybody could understand who listened and
paid attention that she was trying to prove that a point and she was
able to do that. But she could not erase the fact that she had been
dishonest with the school committee, and they couldn't erase the fact
that she had signed these papers. I don't know what went through the
minds of the school committee members themselves, except for Walter
because I didn't know the other two well enough to...yes?
Barnett: No, just, no, well Walter, what was he thinking?
Wilson: Well because I had worked with him before either of us had
moved to Wayland, in past experience he had been a labor lawyer for a
union who was trying to get its way into a department store, but I was
on the administrative end of it, so that he and I were in conflict
with each other. But I must say that he never raised our voices and
yelled at each other or anything like that. I respected him, and I
think he respected me. But his feeling was that he...he was willing to
overlook a...minor infringement, in his idea, because she was a good
teacher, and shouldn't do that.
Barnett: Didn't he say though, um...
Wilson: Afterwards he did
Barnett: That, um, if she, if he had been able to count the silence
that she said against her, he would've voted guilty?
Wilson: Yes, that's right. He did, he did say that...but
reluctantly...um, he wasn't reelected to the school committee, and
that may have had something to do with it.
Barnett: So, do you think there was a real, uh, kinda...not
McCarthyism, but a McCarthyist attitude?
Wilson: There is no question that there were certain people in town,
and most of them are no longer alive that I can think of, but there
was this one man named Frank Carter, and he was very sure that not
only was she a communist but there were a lot of other people, most of
those people lived in red houses...
Barnett & Sanchez: [laughs]
Wilson: Or did things with their shutters, or what else, but they were
communists in his mind and they were gonna try to overtake, and that
was a very interesting thing because, um, the kind of thing that got
said, sort of with tongue in cheek, that the guy at the post office,
let's say; we didn't have delivery then, we had to go to the post
office everyday, and one time I was in line with another person, I was
at that time on the board of health, so I was an elected town
official, and so was the guy behind me, and the post master was
chatting about this, and he said "Well, it's these new people coming
into town" the guy behind me had lived in Wayland for a longer period
of time than I, said "they are just gonna take to take over
everything" and then he recognized that I was there: "Oh, I didn't
mean you of course", so he did mean me...
SANCHEZ & Wilson: [laughs]
Wilson: We were, y'know, anyone young coming into a community is gonna
be radical, just by virtue of being young.
Wilson: And I wasn't gonna go around talking about pretend communists
behind trees so therefore I might be doing some evil too. But not
just myself, a general feeling that anybody who had fresh or different
ideas might be dangerous; there was the little atmosphere because of
the McCarthy stuff that had permeated, so that people...even if they
didn't want to, might label somebody a...."Oh, he's probably a
Sanchez: Do you think people did that out of protection, that, "oh,
they might think that I am, y'know, up to something, or am a pinko"?
Wilson: That's a very clever analysis. Yes, probably some of it was.
If I say something like that then people will know that I'm not
a...yeah, there was probably a little of that kinda stuff: maybe
almost subconscious. That's...that's very searching.
Wilson: It was not as...well, particularly now that I look back on it,
it was not anywhere near as exciting as it could've been. It was
really quite low-key
Wilson: And that was Roger Stokey, he, and the school committee
themselves, and the tenure of the town because even though there were
some people who were.
Sanchez: Subscribers to...
Wilson: Were scared by anything red there were a whole lot of people,
there were some people who weren't, and there were some people who
just plain didn't care. It just didn't make that much difference,
because they didn't have a child who was affected by this teacher, so
things were getting taken care of. Probably the most, the largest
attendance the first night was just plain curiosity; how's it gonna be
done? And then when they saw it was not as interesting as...what they
might see on television at home [coughs] they just sorta
dissipated...and after it was all over there was very little reference
made to it except when somebody would be discussing things in the
past, like now...
Wilson: Part of this is just because of the year, the time or because..
Sanchez: Because it plays into, y'know, Wayland's a small Northeastern
town, it might have something to do with the country at this time
period at large, so pretty much yeah, just the time period...[coughs]
Barnett: What was the '50's like?
Sanchez: You mentioned something about TVs
Wilson: Let me...Most of the people who moved in new were a bit like
ourselves, who moved in...in 1952-53, around there, were people who
had not, many of them [inaudible] first of all, they were young adults
with either starting their families or...or babies or had a dog and
couldn't keep it in the cit, or something and it was a step up, from
living in an apartment in Cambridge or wherever they had been, to
coming out here. So a lot of people were, and this had been a very
rural community until...ah...much more so than Weston, even though 128
didn't divide things then, anything that was west of what is now 128,
except for Weston and parts of Needham was...were unbuilt to the
extant they are now. So there was a lot of housing going up. In that
particular period of time all of the section we now call happy hollow
and Damend Farm and Woodridge and some of the other sections or houses
or...were almost all built at once and then everyone moved in so the
whole climate suddenly became young parents, or about to be parents.
So there was a big impulse to get the schools up to snuff we had at
the point a school superintendent we shared with Sudbury, we didn't
even have our own superintendent. The building that is now the town
office building was the high school and the junior high school. Um,
happy hollow had been built, was built this year, I think, the same
year as '54 maybe '55, but the happy hollow school was either under
construction or about to be. And, well I'd like to remark I remember
a couple with like four boys and they said "we can't afford not to
have a good school system" In other words we can't send our kids to
private school, we got to many of 'em and don't make enough money so
we are gonna have to have a good school system, and that was the
attitude. There was a lot of attention paid to the school and school
events...um, volunteering fore...many women didn't work outside the
home, because they...because that wasn't the going thing then and so
they were home all day, so there was a lot more volunteering, so that
organizations like the Junior Town House, the league of women voters,
other organizations, that were very active. A lot of volunteer effort,
cub scouts and things like that were real big. I would probably say
your cub scouts and um...
Wilson: Campfire girls, and things like that were big groups of people
and much more than they are now.
Wilson: There is a Boy Scout troop in this town I think...
Barnett: Yeah, there's not many kids...I mean not that I know of...
Wilson: But it is just that it was the thing, I mean all things that
keep the kid occupied after school, no school clubs either. There
weren't things like that at high school, there weren't...there was a
football team, never won any games or anything...
Barnett & Sanchez: [Laugh loudly]
Wilson: But until the new high school, then new, now the almost
50-year-old high school, was built, high school activity was minimal,
I mean there really wasn't a lot of after school stuff to do. The
bandleader that came about around then, he really charged things up
and got people interested in music. But it...it was a slow process, I
mean it seems so to us who want everything now. I think that was
probably the thing, when you're growing, when your town is growing,
there is an excitement about it that you don't feel
now...there...young parents who were really excited about things, they
went to everything, babysitting was something that was done all the
time, high school girls babysat nightly.
Sanchez: I'm sure...I'm sure that's a way that every family got to
know every other family, just by babysitting each other's kids,
Wilson: It was...It was a different pattern....
Barnett: Was it, wait, was it a close-knit community at this time?
Wilson: Those who were involved was very close-knit, um, In a way that
I think probably will never happen again, in this kind
of...uh...community. There were the old townie Cochituate people who
just didn't like any change going on at all, thank you very much...
Barnett: [laughs] Still the same way
Wilson: There were old farmers in the Northern end of town who didn't
want anything to change and reluctantly began to accept the fact that
it was changing; they couldn't do anything about it. They tried,
Sanchez: What do you mean by "they tried"?
Wilson: Well...they...[Side A of the tape runs out] [Side B starts,
small elapse of time] involvement, but then there were too many new
younger people that they got swamped.
Wilson: And so, pretty much things ran the way people with young
children, in public schools, wanted them to run. We got an expensive
superintendent, we got an expensive new high school, we got three
elementary schools, all brand new practically, and they really
couldn't do anything about it.
Sanchez: They just had to accept...
Wilson: Accept the fact that their property values went up...
Barnett & Sanchez: [Laugh loudly]
Wilson: And they had to pay more taxes, but they didn't like any of
that. Now, that was a handful of people, I mean, in comparison...
Wilson: But they were vocal
Barnett: They were the loudest?
Sanchez: It is always the angriest that are the loudest [laughs]
Wilson: It is hard to give up a feeling of ownership, when you feel
you're an active old timer in town and really run things, and then you
begin to find all these thirty year old people are running things,
then suddenly you just feel left out, as if...and you're resentful. I
think some of that happened, not a lot of it. So, it was more
exciting I think for people living here then because, well, I can't
say that because I don't really know, but it seems to me, that when,
um, I think that the young mothers in town exerted a lot more
influence then they do now, in proportion to the population. Because
they were actively involved everyday in the town, there wasn't any
kindergarten, so they had to take their children to private
kindergarten, kindergarten that was absorbed, but at the time we are
talking about, it wasn't public kindergarten. And then they got into
carpool kinda thing, and there were all these activities that came
after school, and so the mothers were driving people that...children,
all over town and there was a lot of give and take, um, again as I say
there wasn't the organized clubs at school, or music lessons, so that
the people weren't involving their kids in that sorta thing. Probably
no more quote "together" time than you have now, because of the
various kinds of, almost frenzied activities that these mothers were
doing rather than going to work someplace and getting paid for it.
Barnett: Yeah, that's interesting
Wilson: What else, anything?
Barnett: Well, uh, it seems that, uh, Anne Hale case was not this big
of McCarthyism in our town which we were kind of believing until now,
but we would both like to know if there are, were like any lessons
learned there that should take now to out times
Wilson: Well the biggest lesson of all of course is one would hope
that we had learned as a country that you don't trust demagogues. But
I'm not sure that lesson every got learned, except for one generation,
but it didn't get passed on very well to the next. Uh, I think that
we're still on the, that human being are still at the point were we
tend to believe people who sound as if they know it all, and there is
not enough questioning, but that is my own public, my own private
opinions. I just think people ought to question everything.
But...that kinda of attitude is what back then would have made you
Barnett, Sanchez & Wilson: [laugh loudly]
Wilson: You're no good
Sanchez: That's red talk!
Wilson: But I think that...that...poor Anne Hale never, of course went
on to have a miserable afterlife, she never as able to get the kinda
job she had here that was...as good as this. And she kinda...um,
y'know, didn't have a rosy after-Wayland life.
Sanchez: Did she keep in contact with Wayland at all?
Wilson: Some people have...had kept in contact with her, uh,
particularly the people who were involved with the Unitarian church,
who did want to befriend her because she was a member of the church.
And that was another thing that happened to, for a while there the
Unitarian church was thought of as being a hot bed of communism,
because the minister was young and Anne Hale was a member and people
were standing up for her and she was still allowed to go to church,
believe it or not, nobody closed the door on her, so therefore she
must be...they must be a hotbed of communism. But that dissapiated
too, obviously; I don't think that people think that the Unitarian
church is harboring....
Sanchez: Oh those Unitarians, up to no...
Wilson: [Inaudible] Government....
Sanchez: Up to no good!
Wilson: [laughs] Up to no good. So it was all, y'know, there
was...there were little fringe things that kept on from this that
didn't really disappear until...until McCarthy was shown up to be
Barnett: Yeah, he fell hard
Wilson: And that...that took a while. Um, when you elect somebody to a
public office, they are gonna last up their term, and there is nothing
you can do about it.
Barnett: But he can be censured
Sanchez: Did you know anyone or did...yeah, did you know anyone who
was really just adamant about McCarthy, just loved him, just thought
he was doing such a good job...?
Wilson: Well yes, well, Frank Carter, that I mentioned, and there were
others, but they...but her was really...he...he was a dyed in the
wool, um, communist-hater. And anything that tinged of red-scare was
enough to get him really uptight. And he could talk, there were
people like him in town, but we were lucky enough that there weren't
many. And...it was big in town, of course, but it was much shorter
lived and much quicker forgot than people would have thought in the
beginning of it, and everybody was adjusted to the fact....as...as
they say everything was growing, more and more kids were coming,
schools were being built, things being taught, there was the
Strawberry festival, there was the memorial day parade, where
everybody turned out, there were things that were happening, there
were less influential now because we don't have those same things, or
the need for them quite the same way, uh, perhaps, so that, um, you
can forget the things, y'know that just...
Barnett: Sorta just washed away?
Wilson: ...everyday wake up and say "Oh, that poor Anne Hale!" or "I'm
so glad we got rid of her!" it just didn't matter much...
Sanchez: It just sorta left with her, y'know? Just the whole topic of
Wilson: well, y'know everyday there's another little something that
happens, so you don't just keep dwelling on something that's...it was
publicly taken care of, it was handled without rancor or screaming or
flag waving, it was quietly, as you can tell from your paper, y'know,
next month there was something more important, or as important. And
this town, being this far away, in those days, from Boston, we were a
little hick town compared to what was happening there, so, uh, the
Boston Globe might've had a piece on it, but it wouldn't have been the
top headline, something that was happening in Boston would have been
much more exciting...
Barnett: I'm sure they had their own communists...
Barnett: I'm sure they had their own communists!
Wilson: Yes, they had their own communists! You're right, and they
had other things which were happening, so, um, y'know, it
was...everybody in the country was concerned about red China,
communist Russia and of course there was the whole USSR, so it wasn't
just Russia. And what was left of...of...y'know...un...un, the people
who hadn't quite been quelled of their fascist notions in Italy and
Germany. People were much more concerned with idealist...different
kinds of idealism in other big foreign places, so that gradually, I
think most of the country began to realize that this country was not
about to be overtaken by a few Gregory Pecks or
whomever...[laughs]...it just wasn't going to succumb to some foreign
idealism that wasn't proper for this kind of a set up, with, a
democracy isn't just gonna give in to a few people who want to change
things that much. And so they relaxed a bit. Okay?
Barnett: Yeah, why thank you!
A transcript of an interview with Rosalyn Kingsbury,
Wayland resident who knew Ann Hale.
Did you know anything about Ms Hale before the Trials began?
Kingsbury: Oh yes my son had her as a teacher.
Oh thats so interesting. Sanchez: [At the same time]Oh really?
Kingsbury: Yeah yeah.
Do you remember any of her classroom antics or anything along those
lines by any chance?
Kingsbury: She was a very good teacher. one of my sons had her. I
guess it was Keith, the oldest son. I have three sons. And I went
down and helped her in the classroom as a mother helper.
So you got to work along side her?
Kingsbury: Yeah, I didnt go very often. It was when she had something
special she wanted to do with the children. [chuckles] The one thing
I did was arm wrestling.
Well thats kind of cool she had arm wrestling day for the kids...
Kingsbury: Hm, something like that.
was a good teacher. She was a very nice Mrs. Kingsbury. She was
unfortunately a very lonely person and was just sort of- found
friends (from a very good family too) found friends that were very
kindly and became her friends but they were just...
Not very close.
Kingsbury: Well, I think they were worried about the communist group
that she seemed to be unaware of it being they were friendly to her
and she was shy and so they became her friends and there was
something else that was brought in by this group. And thats why she
got a bad name. It was too bad she was a nice person.
Kingsbury: She was really, I feel, quite unaware of the-
What she got involved in or how it got out?
Kingsbury: I dont know. As I remember she just seemed to be in that
group. I think she just didntÖ She was really unaware of... that
it was wrong, that group of friends. She didnt probably defend
Kingsbury: Or maybe even understand.
Do you know any of those friends? Do you remember anything about
Kingsbury: No No I knew nothing about them. It wasnt until she was- oh
the start of the trial wasnt it. I think my brother was one of the
lawyers, and Mr. Stokey. They worked together.
Kingsbury: Now theres a paper that was written by a member of the
Unitarian Church that describes the whole thing very very well.
Robert Mainer is a member of the- he wrote the-
Kingsbury: Oh yeah hes the one who wrote it, absolutely.
They used to think back then that the Unitarian church was just this,
like, “My partner Wills grandmother, Jo Wilson, said that, um,
people used to think the Unitarian Church was this hot bed of
Kingsbury: That right, they did. Thats about the time I joined.
just after. Well there were some people who were very liberal and...
and thought of... um...
They gave people the impression of?
Kingsbury: Yeah yeah of being liberal. This town was not a liberal
Kingsbury: -and the Unitarian Church- well not every body but because
this is a very old and well known church and there are a lot of fine
families in town that are Unitarians. But it was considered quite
liberal and so anybody can seem to be um interested in associations
that had to do with human rights and that sort of thing were kind
Out of the loop?
Kingsbury: Yeah. Pointed at.
Really? Anything that had to do with just human rights?
Kingsbury: Not just- well no I think thats just the way I looked at
it. Because some of my good friends were people who were involved in
something called Fair Housing.
Yeah Fair Housing: it was so they couldnt discriminate against people
trying to buy a house.
Kingsbury: Yup. Now thats good thinking.
And those people were pointed out or singled out?
Kingsbury: Some of them. Some of them. It was a pretty conservative
Thats funny how Wayland's become so, I mean for the most part,
What was it that drew you to join the Unitarian Church?
Kingsbury: Well I think the Reverend Daniel Finn was at the Unitarian
Church. I started out at the Congregational Church because the home
which I came from the Congregational Church is the one I went to. So
when I came to town and put Keith in the Congregational Church he was
quite shy. At the end of the year I received a letter from the church
saying theyre sorry that my son had not attended and hoped that he
would return in the fallÖ and may god be with you or something
like that. We though [chuckling] hed get a gold pin for attendance.
So thats how much they paid attention to the school board he was very
shy. So I learned about the Junior Church at the Unitarian Church
which seemed to have a wonderful- Dan Finn is a wonderful preacher.
He and his wife organized the Junior Church so that the older
children would set up an organization just like the senior church.
And teach them to be responsible and that sort of thing. It just
seemed like a program that made more sense to my husband and me for
him. And then I enjoyed it too.
Did Ms. Hale recognize that your son was a little bit shy; was this
something she pointed out to you?
Kingsbury: Of course, she was veryÖ He was young, actually. His
birthdays in November and he was really shy. We felt he was ready; he
was beginning to read and we were not at that timeÖ we were
anxious to get him into school. Thinking it was the thing to do. We
thought we were doing the right thing. Actually we should have
brought him to a private kindergarten.
Why do you say that?
Kingsbury: Because he was young and immature and shy. And now a days
they dont start children, nevermind the age, you go when youre
socially ready. I taught kindergarten for a long time and selected
children from nursery school to go into kindergarten when they were
So Mrs. Hale-
Kingsbury: Ms. Hale
Miss Hale, she handled your son...
Kingsbury: He loved her. Yeah, she was very very nice.
She wasn't impatient or anything?
Kingsbury: Oh no. not impatient. She was just a lovely person with
children. As far as we could see.
Kingsbury: I've never heard of anybody, in fact it was just that year
that anyone had any problems.
Were you caught by surprise when... how did you find out that she
would be put on trial?
Kingsbury: Oh it built up. My brother was involved and some people
were complaining because she was involved in this group. And felt
that she was not suitable to teach. The whole thing to me seemed
You say there were people that complained, like they were a group of
very vocal citizens?
Kingsbury: I gather so. You know I was unaware of that because
everything was so successful: With the children and the nursery
school and kindergarten they were in. Finally I was on the board of
the Junior Town House for kindergarten. Once your child goes beyond
kindergarten you cant be on the board, school board. So I was just a
mother at home until- lets see why did... oh I know, one of the
teachers died- and I had a teachers certificate so they asked me to
teach. I've been teaching ever since, until I retired. I actually
have a therapeutic dieticians degree. I went to college and then
Kingsbury: But I had three little boys and I wanted to stay home with
them and I thought well I like children so I'm going to go on and do
There weren't a lot of women, er, mothers that had jobs at that
Kingsbury: No not like that.
But teaching was a common job for women.
Kingsbury: Yeah. It was just being involved, it was something that I
was able to do and to do it for the children.
Did you ever get to see any of the trials when Ms. Hale was put on
Kingsbury: You mean went to the meetings? Sure. My brother was part of
Can you describe those?
Kingsbury: Uh well it was just questions and answers and it was held
at the High School- old High School Gym which is now the town
building. We all sat on the bleachers and there was a moderator. I
think Roger Stokey might have been the moderator.
What was the atmosphere like? Was it exciting?
Kingsbury: Curiosity. That was the big thing. We were a small town. My
oh my look whats going on. It was very well run. But it was um...
Did people come to the meetings with very strong opinions about
Kingsbury: I suppose some did. I think most of my friends certainly
thought it was unfair. That it was too bad it was happening in a
Do you remember anyone who was just adamantly against her?
Kingsbury: No I dont. I think there were some people who might have
been... no, I dont know anyone who was adamantly against her. I think
there were people who felt that she was being unfairly criticized.
Probably because she was so nice and got along so well. I mean we
have three little boys and were interested in doing the right thing
by schools and kindergartens an ooh. There were a lot of stay at home
mothers. It was a while when I was well into teaching there were a
lot of divorces in town. The town had grown, there were divorces.
Mothers were working, and thats when I did most of my teaching in the
public school system. That was some of the problems there, well after
I got involved in the junior town house. As the town grows different
problems come up. They're handled differently. The staffs change.
Have they changed for the better in your opinion?
Kingsbury: Oh Yes. The school system was really very good and it still
is. But we worked hard for it.
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